Parable Limbo
September 19, 2008 § 23 Comments
Following up on the previous question, suppose now that the two organizations are Planned Parenthood and some other even worse organization, which does everything Planned Parenthood does plus it also advocates for the murder of people with red hair. Would you give a dollar to Planned Parenthood?
Zippy Catholic 
Apples & oranges. A voluntary charity is nearly as different from choosing who will govern us as algebra is to poetry.
Yeah, apples. Zippy, are you also supposing that either one or the other is going to make a bunch of choices that control your society for the next 4 years?
Suppose that the choice of who was going to govern the United States was between Planned Parenthood and Death to Redheads Too, and governance was chosen in this manner.Would you give a dollar to Planned Parenthood?
Neither of the parables you’ve presented are analogous to voting. In neither case can you give the money.
Suppose the choice is between the Aztecs and the Carthaginians?I would choose to live under the Carthaginians.Just because they were both evil does not mean one can’t prudentially choose the lesser evil. Nor does choosing the lesser evil mean one is choosing the evil, but instead choosing the greater good for one’s own family while recognizing the illegitimacy of both choices.
So is that one “no” and one “yes”?
Zippy writes : “So is that one “no” and one “yes”?”It’s one yea for the my family.
So the “yes” means you would give a dollar to Planned Parenthood in the scenario I described? And how exactly would this help your family?Remember, the whole point to the exercise is that you don’t get to decide the outcome, you just get to decide whether or not to give a dollar to Planned Parenthood. The outcome will be the result of vast numbers of people doing the same thing, of course, but your particular contribution is just a dollar.
zippy writes : “So the “yes” means you would give a dollar to Planned Parenthood in the scenario I described? And how exactly would this help your family?”No. I was using a different example which is a bit closer to home. I would rather live under Carthaginian rule than under Aztec rule because my family would be safer under Carthaginian rule._________The principle of double effect is used where I choose the good of my family which is my primary duty. Or if looking to society as a whole, I choose the good of the community which is better served under Carthaginian rule. The method used is no different than execution where the death of the aggressor is accidental. Accidental does not mean unknown, or even unintended in some manner, but accidental to the substance of the act.
OK, but what is your answer to the question I asked? Again, the whole point the exercise is that, as with voting, you don’t get to decide the outcome; you just get to decide who, if anyone, gets your dollar.
zippy writes : “OK, but what is your answer to the question I asked?”I like mine better because I’m not giving a dollar, but I am in effect voting because I’m choosing this government versus that government.But taking your example if the choice is either this or that, my dollar would in effect buy the decrease in evil, with its use of evil caused by planned parenthood with that dollar being accidental.Or I would choose to do neither if my choice becomes virtually a choosing of an evil such as if a madman points a gun at two of my children and demands of me to choose which one will live. The madman’s choice is a cooperation with evil, where as the prior choice to not kill redheads appears to be a choosing the greater good.
<>I like mine better because I’m not giving a dollar, but I am in effect voting because I’m choosing this government versus that government.<>Except you are not choosing this government versus that government. What you are really doing is livin’ on a prayer.– Kurt
Kurt writes : “Except you are not choosing this government versus that government. What you are really doing is livin’ on a prayer.”No. What I was doing is looking at two different governments where worship of satan was the state religion and choosing the one where the manifestations of it were less pronounced.Thus my family would more likely be left in peace under Carthaginian rule , not unlike today where I choose the less intrusive of the two governments for the same reason.
What all these exercises come down is whether or not the choice is an “affirmation of the legitimacy of the governance which emerges from the election“ or the affirmation of the legitimacy of some other entity.Thus I like my choice of Carthaginian rule vesus Aztec rule because its more apparent that the neither one is chosen as an affirmation of legitimacy.
<>What I was doing is looking at two different governments where worship of satan was the state religion and choosing the one where the manifestations of it were less pronounced.<>If that is what you were doing, then you still haven’t answered the question. You are just avoiding it. I’m not asking who you would choose to rule if you had the power to choose them. I am asking who you would give your dollar to.
“I am asking who you would give your dollar to.”If there a reasonable chance my dollar would make the difference, I would give it to planed parenthood because it would be bring back a very good return on investment depending on likelyhood of redheads actually being killed. But if the dollar’s change of making a difference was negligible, I would spend it elsewhere.
<>But if the dollar’s chance of making a difference [in the outcome] was negligible, I would spend it elsewhere.<>There you go.
Good question, Zippy. I asked a similar question of McCain supporters on my blog. Here’s another:Let’s say a man is running for president – the only man who can beat Obama – who is pro-life even when it comes to ESCR, rape, incest, and the life of the mother. He makes only one exception: Downs Syndrome or similarly retarded babies, whom he does not view as fully human. He would in fact fund these abortions.On the numbers, ESCR has the potential to destroy more unborn lives than aborting Downs Syndrome babies, so this candidate is “more pro-life” than John McCain. Would you vote for this man to stop Obama?
Jeff Culbreath writes : “Would you vote for this man to stop Obama?”Yes. Especially since Obama would kill the Downs Syndrome babies as well as all others.An imperfect instrument does not reflect on the user of it except insofar as user of that instrument chooses its imperfection as a good.
But would you vote for him if there was no chance of your vote affecting the outcome?
Zippy writes : “But would you vote for him if there was no chance of your vote affecting the outcome?”No. I prefer my acts to not be in vain. Thus I would rather in that circumstance to either vote of Jim Newland or Pat Paulson.
I like a good debate as much as the next gal, but this particular back and forth is all mute as we face the down to the wire time on this election. There is only one way to make this government of ours work for the good and that is to work the system better than the other side. The system is often flawed but that as much to do with us not getting into the stream of politics as it is with the candidates themselves. This year we have a clear chance to defeat evil in the persons of Obama and Biden. McCain/Palin is a striking example of how we’ve made our issues present to the Party politicos. They know we pro-life/ values voters matter and in Mrs. Palin we are represented marvelously. To not support the Republican ticket is to show that we aren’t smart enough to see that we have a place at the table and are setting the terms of the debate as never before. Evangelium Vitae is a wonderful guide to the need to do what we can with the tools we have,(less than perfect candidates), as we build towards the best responses to the culture of death.Don’t allow your wishes and dreams of perfection lead you to think that now is the time to make a contrary statement or protest vote.The Babies need us as American voters to be smart and show that we get it. We understand the system and we will make it work to save their lives!Please go to http://www.nrlpac.org and see how you can help.
<>The system is often flawed but that as much to do with us not getting into the stream of politics as it is with the candidates themselves.<>Lili,I think this is exactly the point that is under contention in this discussion.